- Adequately powered by a 15 hp motor that I already have.
- Very shallow draft in order to target tailing redfish.
- Easily poled for the same reason.
- Front casting deck suitable for flyfishing.
- Can fish 2 people. 3 max.
The East Cape Canoe Gladesmen......
And the Hells Bay Glades Skiff.....
The Glades Skiff had a very limited production run and pictures are difficult to find on the web. It has a similar shape to the ECC, but is a slightly more substantial boat. Hell's Bay went under, but has been bought out and it looks like Glades Skiffs may be produced again. The ECC runs around $9K and the HB runs around $15K. Both without power. Both well out of my price range. I've been toying around with the idea of building a boat for a while now, but haven't found a design that meets my criteria. However, with input from his customers, Jacques Mertens at www.bateau.com designed a boat that meshes well with my needs. He named it the Flats Stalker 18 and the study plans can be found here:
http://www.boatplans-online.com/studyplans/FS18_study.htm
It is functionally very similar to the production boats listed above, but built using a next generation stitch and glue method. This involves hull panels and frames of marine plywood encapsulated in layers of epoxy and fiberglass. This method results in a true composite sandwich that is in some ways superior to standard production methods. The skiff is very basic but should let me get the jump on those spooky reds. The best part is that a hull can be built with the best available materials, nicely outfitted and still only cost around $3000.
91 comments:
The ECC Gladesmen pictured is my boat, you are using my picture without my permission, and also leaching my bandwidth. Please remove it and ask the company for a picture and permission to use it if you wish to use one. Thanks.
What a bunch of whiny ECC bitches there are out there. Can't wait for the bankruptcy sale on that boat company.
Why buy an ECC when you can build two yourself for the same money and take a chunck out of thier business at the same time.
Message for Capt Nate - get a life, stop whining and complaining and be grateful for the publicity you are getting - remember "There is no such thing as bad publicity" it's just how you handle it that counts
It has got to sting that so many people are going to be building their own Glade Skiff now. These poor guys will probably be losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential market growth. Of course, they're not doing themselves any favors with the hostile attitude either. They ought to lose the lawyers and get a marketing team instead.
If I didn't have real job, I would seriously consider getting a licensing agreement with Jacques and pull a mold off an FS18 hull and start competing with Hells Bay and ECC. It could even be built with vacuum infusion like the "big" boys. It would be a better boat with a self bailing cockpit, higher payload capacity, and a larger engine rating.
Super Spook, things look like they are going well for ya. Great progress on the FS 18, excited to see it.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, Would you ECC guys get over yourselves already? You built a neat lil boat, good for you! Youe just giving yourselves a bad name in a very tight knit community.
Spook, Great Job! Keep it up!
Nate, unless you own blogger.com, he's not leaching your bandwidth. Check the src tag of the image before stating such things.
The bigger point is that I don't understand the philosophy of your company. Why make such a stink over someone putting your name out there? He didn't disparage your boat at all, he just can't afford it. Are you seriously afraid a lot of people will start building a similar boat to your gladesman instead of buying one from you? I can't imagine that the market for top of the line skiffs and homebuilt skiffs overlaps dramatically.
OK guys, here's a shocker! The original photograph is from Ernest C. Simmons - a nature photographer in Florida.
http://www.ernestsimmons.com/PhotoGallery1.html
Imagine that! Capt Nate is full of it. Not only do the folks associated with East Cape Canoe try to bully people, but they lie through their teeth in the process!!!
Get a life ECC and your ilk.
I wanted to stay out of this, but need to say that the picture on the site is not the original one that Capt. Nate is talking about. He pulled the pic of his boat, so I searched around on the web for a new one that displayed the layout of the ECC, how nicely finished it is, and wasn't directly associated with the "enthusiastic" people who run the company. The one I found was on a nature photographer's website. That's the one you're seeing now.
Oops. My bad, my Google search finger is a little late on that trigger.
But I'll make no apologies to the fine Capt. and the individuals he associates with.
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone. It was my boat that was originally pictured. I gave no permission to use it, so I killed the link and removed the picture. It did absolutely nothing for me to have my boat pictured here. Publicity? Hardly...
Regardless, good luck with your boat building.
And "Bob", you're a funny one. You're a member of the ECC forum and have been shadowing whatever one of the owners has done for years now. You've been the topic of shop jokes for quite some time. Obviously you have some personal issues there that need to be explored or resolved since the hostile posts seem to be directly coming from you.
BTW --
I'm not an employee of ECC. All I did was find someone using a picture of my boat, which I didn't care for. I asked for it to be removed, when it wasn't, I deleted it from my server.
There are no hard feelings, despite what some posts here are trying to assume.
I have no issues with Elie trying to build his own skiff, I think it's cool for him to do so if that's what he wants to do. Why would I have issues with it, it has no bearing on me? I strongly think that ECC as a company would feel the same way. It's not competition for them, heck they don't even know this blog exists.
Unfortunately there is a poster here who's had it out for ECC for quite some time (years) and he's using this as a platform to stir up more nonsense. That's kind sad.
In the end, good luck Elie with the building. Stick with it, work hard, and give it all you got. Hopefully come away with a boat you can enjoy for quite some time and ultimately catch some redfish, which will be exactly what you were looking to do. Best wishes and tight lines!
Thank you Capt. Nate. If I had known that you asked for the pic to be removed, I would have done so. That was the first day that I put this site up, and wasn't aware of the comment function until after the picture disappeared. Like I said, I was simply looking for a pic of the Gladesmen that wasn't associated with the ECC website. You may not be aware, but the ECC guys have made it abundantly clear that anyone associated with the FS18 cannot reference ECC or the Gladesmen. They seem to have threatened legal action against Bateau. Personally, I think that it's a bonehead move, and while it doesn't affect me directly, it does affect how I view the company and the people associated with it. Since I'm sure most of the people here are coming from the Bateau forum, their views have obviously been affected as well. It's created a lot of bad press and ill will amongst a small but very devoted group of amateur boatbuilders. I don't have any problem with Capt. Nate. I wish him well. Despite the fact that they turn out a nice product, I do have issues with ECC. But this isn't the place to discuss them. Now let's start talking about this build.
Couple things that need clearing up:
I do not work for ECC but am in a unique postion to hear both stories from both sides.
1) I have on good authority that ECC tried to be respectful and asked BPO politely not to use their images. One person at BPO said "oh ok" and was all cool about it over the phone. But when it came time to take action, BPO changed their mind. When BPO didn't comply then, only then, it got lawyers involved. BPO does not share the entire story as it would make them look bad.
2) Comparing the FS18 to a Gladesman is kooky talk. FS18 does not have the flare, light weight, or performance shape of a Gladesman. FS18 looks to be a great home project but saying it's a one to one replacement for the FS18, no freaking way.
3) Build 2 FS18s for the price of one Gladesman? Sorry Charlie. Looks to be at least $3k just for the hull from premium material to get it light weight. Add a new trailer, motor, and rigging and all of the sudden the prices are very close.
I doubt ECC is worried much about losing business to home boat builders. They understand their market. Are they getting a little bent out of shape over a small issue? Maybe a little but they have a passion for what they do.
Sorry Capt., but I can't let you make some of those statements without facts to back them up. The FS18 does compare favorably to the Gladesmen, especially considering it is a larger boat. ECC lists the Gladesmen's weight at 125-220 lbs. The FS18 will weigh in at 240 lbs, with premium materials for under $2K. Nidacore sole and decks will bring it into the same weight range as the Gladesmen and add $600-800 to the cost. Even rigged out with options not included in the Gladesmen, it won't cost more than $4K. Half the cost for a rigged hull should perform as well, and is more boat. You can't tell me that doesn't compare favorably when used Gladesmen outfits are listing for $12K-15K. So the FS18 has the light weight. Not sure what you mean by flare in the Gladesmen (like pieces of flare or like a Carolina sportfisher hull flare) or why it is appropriate in a flats hull. I also question the "performance hull". It's a narrow flats boat with round bilges, a pinched stern and a skeg so it doesn't slide around. It's very well built, but there is no magic to it. I can understand your devotion to the company. They do some innovative things (mostly in their construction process) and turn out a cool product. But don't come on here degrading the quality of plywood composites for building boats when you obviously don't understand the material. The finest sportfishers in the world are built using these methods because conventional GRP technology isn't up to the task. Do some research. See how this stuff works, and then seriously think about why anyone would pay $12K for a big Gheenoe with a cap.
I assumed that was Capt. Nate above, but it may not have been. If not, I apologize, but the statements I made remain true.
Nope not Cpt Nate.
And I've built a few plywood cored boats, big and small. I do know what I'm talking about. My choice is to build rather than buy.
So to say I'm putting down he build process is foolishness. But I understand there are tradeoffs.
If you don't think flare matters when you're running a chop, then you haven't done much serious fishing.
In your calculations, you're looking at hull only. Add up the costs of a new engine and trailer with that. Yes you still might be cheaper but to say 2 for 1 is bad math.
I think you'd better recheck your estimates too. You're under estimating the total cost.
Finally, A Gladesmen is no where near a Gheenoe. Where you get that comparison from? Please provide links to images showing how they are the same. I'd really like to see that. Hopefully Gheenoe or ECC would not mind those pictures being posted here.
The FS18 is a nice little skiff. I wouldn't build one and probably will never purchase a Gladesman. But the length and width of the FS18 are about the only thing comparable to a Gladesmen.
I'm still not seeing any portion of the Gladesmen hull that exhibits a great deal of flare. I know what it is and I know why it matters in a chop. And I also know that few if any boats in this size range rely on it instead of spray rails to keep the passengers dry. I don't care what kind of flare or spray rails you have, if you are in a 4 1/2' wide boat with 12" of freeboard, you're getting wet in a chop.
As far as cost goes, a "rigged" Gladesmen with trailer costs $8900 + tax ($9523 total) according to the website. The materials for my bare, primed hull will cost me $2200 (tax included) buying the best. I can easily paint and rig to an equivalent level for $1800. Finding a trailer for $750 is not hard. Engine cost will be the same regardless of boat. That is where the two for one comes from.
The Gheenoe comparison references the fact that the two boats have a high length to beam ratio, low freeboard, round chines, and a pinched stern. They can be poled from the stern and have a very shallow draft. They are onviously not identical. The Gladesmen doesn't have a canoe bow, is larger, and has a cap. It's also built better. But I'm not convinced it can do a whole lot that the other can't. Like I said, I really liked the ECC stuff until the people running the company showed their true colors, but it's not like they set the world on fire when they designed the Gladesmen. It's a well-built, cool little boat, but I don't think it's nearly as innovative as they seem to think it is.
As far as comparisons between the FS18 and the Gladesmen go, I think they are fair. Just like comparisons between the Glades Skiff or Gheenoe are fair. I fail to understand why you consider them so outrageous. I think in some ways, the FS18 is closer to the Hell's Bay Glades Skiff than anything, and that is a plus as far as I am concerned. If I could have influenced Jacques enough for him to designed a virtual clone of the Glades Skiff that would have been perfect for me. The boats all do the same thing. They all do it in the same way. Some are a little bigger. Some have decks. Some are prettier than others. Narrow beam ....long ....light ....no tunnel = shallow draft and easy to pole. As I said before. There is no magic to it. To say that they all accomplish the same thing through wildly different design characteristics is simply false.
"The Gheenoe comparison references the fact that the two boats have a high length to beam ratio, low freeboard, round chines, and a pinched stern.... The Gladesmen doesn't have a canoe bow, is larger, and has a cap."
Gheenoe has rounded chines? Gladesman doesn't have a canoe bow? I think you may have gotten those 2 mixed up.
I still say your cost is way off. I'd like to see this completed rigged boat you'll build for that cost.
To make a fair comparison, you have to compare a new trailer to new trailer. Can't compare new to used.
Primer and paint costs. Application tooling costs.
Good example of bow flare http://www.eastcapecanoes.com/photos/pics/521_1155582713.jpg?1172017952
and here:
http://www.eastcapecanoes.com/photos/pics/379_1142661679.jpg?1172018042
The bow flares much MUCH more than the FS18. Look here: http://www.boatplans-online.com/images/boatpics/FS18_iceblue_stern_nopole_4.jpg
if you don't see that, then it's a matter of you "won't" see it rather than you "can't".
Gladesman links did not go through.
Look here http://eastcapecanoes.com/photos/view.php?gallery_id=4&page=3
To each his own. The selling points for me on the FS18 are:
1. Self bailing cockpit.
2. Shallow draft & a decent payload (1100 lbs @ 4" draft).
3. A small, economical engine will get you there. If you want to fly, toss on a 25 HP, 2 stroke.
4. Poling ease.
5. I can launch this at unimproved ramps without much of a worry.
6. The fish won't know that I'll have less than 6 grand invested for everything including a shiney new 18 or 20 hp outboard, trim tabs, and the electric jack plate.
To be clear, I'm not knocking the FS18. It's a neat little program.
My points are:
1) To make an exact comparison is not realistic
2) I know ECC tried to be cool and professional at first but BPO didn't respond to it. So when you say ECC showed their "true colors", remember they tried to be reasonable first.
I'll give you the Gheenoe chine. It's unusual. The Gladesmen most certainly does not have what I consider a canoe bow though. Look at a Gheenoe bow and a Gladesmen bow. I do not have the two mixed up.
I said that I could rig to an equivalent level. According to the website, that means a latch, some lights, switches and wiring, a drain, push pole holders and a grab bar. The boat doesn't even have cleats. If I can't do that for $1800 dolllars, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in selling me some real estate. Put the money I have left over towards the NEW trailer. Mine will run over, but mine will have an aluminum fuel tank, an electric jackplate, a poling platform and a pushpole.
You have to be kidding with the flare thing though. Do you mean the 3 inches that the deck overhangs the hull? The spray rail molded into the hull? Yes, they'll knock down spray, but they're not flare. This boat has flare:
http://www.chaosboatworks.com/chaos-16.php
If the Gladesmen has any, it's definitely not enough to knock down any spray. I never said the FS18 had any. Just that the Gladesmen didn't really either. I don't think flare is necessarily a good thing in a boat like this. It's too small to make sense.
The FS18 IS a neat "little" program. I think that direct comparisons to the Gladesmen are entirely appropriate. Just like direct comparisons to the Hell's Bay are appropriate. Just because it isn't layed up in a mold doesn't mean it's not a legitimate, performance skiff. For a builder that is so inclined, a level of finish higher than that of standard production boats is attainable. It all depends on what is important to you. ECC's reaction to recent events was over the top, regardless of the way things developed. None of the images were ever passed off as belonging to someone else. Credit was always given. They need to fire some of their lawyers and hire a PR team. Or just lighten the hell up.
But all of this is beside the point because this website is not a bash ECC/Bateau forum. I respect both companies. I just think that recent events reflect poorly on ECC. My experience with this website has done nothing to change that perception. If nothing else, the people associated with the brand tend to come across as intolerant fanatics. If you have constructive criticism to add to the discussion, please do so. If you'd like to exhibit more narrow-minded brand loyalty, please take it to another site.
Elie...
You are correct in some of your comments.
I've been recently informed that there was a blog going on about the skiff your building and some comments were being made about our company.
I can truly say I'm not surprised as the posting made by the webmaster of the other board has aided to help steam roll the responses.
Please know this is MY words and not second hand info here...
I "do not" have a problem with the skiff your building! The only problem I had was using our company name,models,and pics without permission.
I contacted them nicely about the situation.
I never got a response from the owner of the site but only an admin who didn't understand. This e-mail was sent to them on the 28th which is LONG after the FS18 thread/intro was made public. Again, I don't have a problem with the plans...only the way it was being marketed. It also didn't help when a fellow builder copied pics of our craft in the message board who has a long standing vendetta against me personally. I've never threatened to sue but only suggested when they are selling their plans they should not compare OTHER builders to help sell the plans otherwise it would open them up to legal suits.
I'm willing to publish my e-mails and theirs to show the time and what was really said...
If you do a search on that forum you'll see a year ago I posted/supported that site and even showed our progress as we went along with the Gladesmen.
I'll take the blame and move on but i have a company with employees that all agreed that we should contact them and let them know how we felt about the matter.
I also feel that skiff your building IS not close to the Gladesmen but to the "other" brand as our skiff tapers from the side,top,bottom, and even tumblehome to flat. I also got to know Glenn Simmons ( the pic he has) as I spent the time to get to know him...got permission to use him as a refrence too.
The Gladesmen owners are a little crazy about their skiffs just as I am. However, please know I help any/everybody if they need it. in the next few months you'll see other plans being offered by another online builder and he took the time to "ask" me things/permission. I've sold,rigged, and speak with other owners of other brands and again...no issues.
Am I sorry? NO. Do I wish myself and the other site/builder did things differently about this situation...YES.
Good luck with your build and may it serve you plenty. I look forward to the pics.
Tight Lines.
Kev
East Cape
Kev,
For the record the owners of Bateau didnt post those pics, guys like me did. It was a discussion about small poling skiffs. There are thousands of people making comments on that board, cut Bateau some slack.
As someone who is also building a FS18 I must say your little boat like many others DID have a big influence on our many requests to Jacques. You see if you read the post in full you would know it started as a request by a builder and snowballed from there.
I understand your wanting people to get your permission if they use YOUR photos to sell a product but thats not the case here. Bateau has several sites and your pics never made it on the site where they sell plans. The forum where your pics landed were a discussion site for builders.
Hope that helps.
Im not tryin to be a smart a$$ but I bet your glad Glenn Simmons didnt lawyer up.
It was nice to get an ECC take. Nice lookin boats by the way!!!
-JB
Kevin,
I'll echo what JB said and say that I can understand you not wanting your pictures used to promote another company, but they were only used in an open discussion to contribute to the design spiral of a new boat. There were two available production boats that fit the same program, and yours was the only one with pictures on the web. You said yourself that the end product does not imitate your product, but is closer in form to the Hell's Bay. I agree.
The Bateau site has 6500 registered users, 6200 of which are probably lurkers being exposed to your boats, most probably for the first time. The only way that could have turned out bad for you is if you approached the situation as you did, spreading negative opinion instead of positive. I don't believe anyone really thinks that the FS18 threatens your bottom line. Not how I would have gone about it, but that's your prerogative.
That being said, thanks for coming on here to offer your opinion. I like the way you guys treat your customers, and I like the boats you build. I don't think the Gladesmen is for me, but if I had the cash, the Lostmen would be on my short list alongside the Gordon. No time building equals way more time fishing. I have no personal vendetta against you guys, but can only go on what is presented to me on this site and the Bateau website (the only exposure I've had outside of your pretty tightly controlled message board). Again, thanks. Hopefully, this will put an end to all this and put the focus back where it belongs.
CapNate,
I dont want to speak for the designer but i think the lack of flare is an effort to reduce hull slap and provide a quieter skiff. Im not sure how that would affect WOT performance but Ill take stealth over performance any day. Ive never been on a Gladesmen so I don’t know how quiet it is. Of the boats Ive been on and build any significant taper in the chine results in hull slap.
Id love to hear about your experience with the Gladesmen. Would you recommend anything to those of us that are building? Im not lookin for criticism of the boat, just your perspective. Sounds to me like you’ve been around the block a few times.
Like most folks building this boat im torn between simple and super. Id love to put a bunch of hatches and switches but im also fond of the simple skiff. Any thoughts on what you’d add to yours?
Sincerely,
JB
Usten, TX
is it just me or did they get all quiet all the sudden!
HEHEHE
It has, and I appreciate everyone letting opinions be stated and then leaving it be. Any constructive remarks regarding the build process, finishing, fitting out, etc. are of course still welcome. In fact, they are encouraged.
Elie,
Are you gonna go with hatches or keep it simple?
-JB
I'm going to do a hatch in the rear deck and the frame cutout in the front for storage under the casting deck. This is how it was set up in the Glades Skiff that I fished on and it really makes things nice. Dry storage in the back. Quick access stuff in the front. The coffin box was also divided in half, so one side could be used as cooler and the other side dry storage.
Out here in Texas we call it "Stealing" and I see why they would be pissed. Get over yourself and build your "better boat" already.
Then those of you in Texas are apparently not paying attention. Nothing was stolen. Intellectual property rights were not violated. Even ignoring the fact that the design and construction method of the boats in question are very different, an incidence of individuals discussing the merits of different boat designs on a public forum does not warrant the threat of legal action. In regards to "getting over myself", if someone comes on a website I set up to demonstrate the merits of a certain design and construction technique and unjustly criticizes both, it is my prerogative to decide if I would like to respond with a rebuttal, much as it is your prerogative to leave if you don't like it. I would encourage you to do so if you have nothing of value to add to the site. The boat is being built as I have time and money, both of which are currently in short supply. If construction doesn't match up well with your personal timeline and the design violates your idea of intellectual property, perhaps you could design a new class of poling skiff that doesn't contain anything "stolen" and build your own. Spend the time to put up a website documenting the process. I'll be sure to visit and post comments as constructive as those you've left here.
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